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Author Topic: Eternal Recurrence  (Read 1098 times)

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joon the butcher

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2010, 01:33:48 PM »

either way your completely unaware of either, so I don't think  it really matters. From your own perception you are simple living life, and should be appreciative of the opportunity to do so.

not necessarily. you're aware of the possibility of its truth and how it could be true. you also know certain things will likely not change about your general being, like your disposition or sense of humor, assuming you don't hit your head in a weird way. would the thought of this possibility change how you live at all? if you thought each action you take you might have to repeat for eternity under the same circumstances, would you act the same way?
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kai

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2010, 01:38:26 PM »

either way your completely unaware of either, so I don't think  it really matters. From your own perception you are simple living life, and should be appreciative of the opportunity to do so.

not necessarily. you're aware of the possibility of its truth and how it could be true. you also know certain things will likely not change about your general being, like your disposition or sense of humor, assuming you don't hit your head in a weird way. would the thought of this possibility change how you live at all? if you thought each action you take you might have to repeat for eternity under the same circumstances, would you act the same way?

however, youre missing the fact that the hypothetical question you're proposing is just that--hypothetical.  at this point it's stoner talk at best. there's not a shred of empirical evidence to support and hence, is on the same line of thought that i couldve been cleopatra in a previous life, or that i could turn into a tiger tomorrow from a magical spell.  oh shit, a tiger? what would i do then? now have to plan for such things...

or, i as well as the rest of the sane universe isn't bothered by such a thought because there is no evidence to support it. there's no reason to fear such a possibility in every day life when you have things far more real to worry about.
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joon the butcher

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2010, 01:54:26 PM »

i think it does hold more scientific water than other spiritual afterlife speculations, though. in a very simplistic manner, it makes sense. consciousness is essentially electro-chemical activity, particles colliding. assuming a finite number of particles or amount of matter, and keeping with laws of thermodynamics (energy cannot be created nor destroyed), if the universe is a closed system, how could an eternity pass without the arrangements of matter repeating themselves?

i realize that is oversimplistic but i think it's enough to make one give it a little more thought than most religious fables

edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3%A9_recurrence_theorem

basically if you accept the premises taht energy is conserved within the universe, that there is a finite amount of matter within the universe, and that time is eternal, all of which are reasonable assumptions, then eternal recurrence is a reasonable conclusion
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 02:04:27 PM by SQUIRTY-J »
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kai

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2010, 02:38:20 PM »

you're essentially talking about re-incarnation, which is logically (although not emprically) supported by the concept of energy conservation.  however, what you're talking about is living the exact same life over and over again, which has nothing to do with the conservation of energy.  remember that the conservation theory states that the energy can CHANGE. so with that idea in mind, i could become heat particles that warm the earth instead of an entirely new person.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 02:40:07 PM by kai »
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joon the butcher

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2010, 02:55:35 PM »

well not reincarnation, because 'i' have not been a tiger. 'i' am this specific biochemical process of this body. that is why i am me and not you.

but energy conservation has everything to do with eternal recurrence, because it ensures that all the particles will eventually find their way into the same configuration again. think of a multitude of balls bouncing around in a vacuum box. the balls will eventually reach their original configuration given enough time, even if that time is very, very long.
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kai

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 02:58:18 PM »

where does science say they will reach their original configuration?  if that were true, we'd all eventually reach an extremely tiny ball of primordial soup that the universe initially stemmed from.
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joon the butcher

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 04:29:33 PM »

edit for simplicity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#Big_Bounce

we might end up in that primordial soup state. it's one of several theorized possibiltiies, and i think it's a bigger possibility than most would initially give credit for
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 04:46:12 PM by SQUIRTY-J »
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DIST0RTI0N

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 05:08:43 PM »

either way your completely unaware of either, so I don't think  it really matters. From your own perception you are simple living life, and should be appreciative of the opportunity to do so.

not necessarily. you're aware of the possibility of its truth and how it could be true. you also know certain things will likely not change about your general being, like your disposition or sense of humor, assuming you don't hit your head in a weird way. would the thought of this possibility change how you live at all? if you thought each action you take you might have to repeat for eternity under the same circumstances, would you act the same way?

Yes, you are aware of the possibility, but only that its possible. So regardless of whether or not its happening, you wouldn't know, there for, it should not have an effect on you, because it is not a truth. (or at least it cannot be proven) 
And given what I just said, I disagree that one would actually "know" that certain things would not change about yourself, because you dont know that you've got more then one life in the first place.
And even if you did know somehow know that you would be repeating for eternity, I don't think it should effect how you live. Because you may know that your stuck in an eternal cycle, but your not retaining any memories from the previous lives, so I cant see someone saying "Well, beings im gonna get re-incarnated im finally gonna go ahead take up cliff diving like i always wanted. Who cares if I die, I have infinite lives. "  
Even though you'd be recycled eventually, and start over, what good what it be, you wouldn't know the difference, as far as your conscious memory goes, this is your first and only life. 
ya digg? 



Just throwing this last part in though - 

Given an infinite amount of time, everything that can happen in the universe, will happen.

So essentially, if time can truly be infinite, then infinite versions of you will end up doing everything that possibly can be done.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 05:10:18 PM by DIST0RTI0N »
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likwid101

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 05:26:53 PM »


Given an infinite amount of time, everything that can happen in the universe, will happen.

So essentially, if time can truly be infinite, then infinite versions of you will end up doing everything that possibly can be done.


10th dimension anyone?

http://www.break.com/index/how-to-imagine-the-tenth-dimension.html

And Distortion pretty much said everything I was thinking... if you don't know, then its never happened, but I wouldn't mind reliving this life-- the world is an awesome place to experience (even if it is for this one time :)  )
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joon the butcher

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Re: Eternal Recurrence
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 06:09:32 PM »

Yes, you are aware of the possibility, but only that its possible. So regardless of whether or not its happening, you wouldn't know, there for, it should not have an effect on you, because it is not a truth. (or at least it cannot be proven) 
And given what I just said, I disagree that one would actually "know" that certain things would not change about yourself, because you dont know that you've got more then one life in the first place.

you don't live your life according to possibilities? you didn't 'know' whether you would ever be good at liquid, but it was a possibility at one point. how do you decide what to do, how to spend your free time, without considering possibilities? i realize that you might not make day-to-day decisions based on the possibilities of the fate of the universe, but i don't think you can discount the idea because it is a possibility rather than a certainty. only so much can be certain, you have to live according to possibilities.

And even if you did know somehow know that you would be repeating for eternity, I don't think it should effect how you live. Because you may know that your stuck in an eternal cycle, but your not retaining any memories from the previous lives, so I cant see someone saying "Well, beings im gonna get re-incarnated im finally gonna go ahead take up cliff diving like i always wanted. Who cares if I die, I have infinite lives. "  
Even though you'd be recycled eventually, and start over, what good what it be, you wouldn't know the difference, as far as your conscious memory goes, this is your first and only life. 
ya digg? 

i think it could affect a person's decisions. awareness that one might have to live the same moment for eternity could further emphasize the old adage of seize the day, not because it is your only chance, but because you'll have to live the consequences or lost opportunities over and over again for eternity.

it also rules out suicide as an effective escape from misery.

Quote
Just throwing this last part in though - 

Given an infinite amount of time, everything that can happen in the universe, will happen.

So essentially, if time can truly be infinite, then infinite versions of you will end up doing everything that possibly can be done.

sure  o_O
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